I have to say, if you don't want to undertake a creative project (as an independent artist) you shouldn't be required to do so just because someone wants you to. You don't have to have a reason. And you don't have to be hateful about it. Just say no, I can't, sorry.
I think, as a practical matter, you have the right of it. I don't know if anyone would demand a reason.
Certainly, the issue should never have been a SCOTUS matter, especially as the designer in question never actually got a request from a same-sex couple.
Exactly. It would be the same as if someone came and asked for a piece you didn't have time to do or didn't feel you could do well. It should never be a requirement to produce something or mandated that you don't have to. The bottom line is do it or don't, but don't be a dick about it.
Yep. And I can't imagine a situation in which someone would insist on a service, if the provider clearly couldn't/wouldn't/didn't want to provide it.
Unless, of course, it was a life-or-death or otherwise critical situation, such as, oh, I don't know, doing car repairs for a same-sex couple stranded in a small town with no other option.
Jul 29, 2023·edited Jul 29, 2023Liked by Denise Donaldson
First I'd like to say it's nice to see someone who writes about the little things in our society that aren't little because they have major impacts on people. This post and issue is one of those. It's nice to see you had an initial reaction which you thought about and reversed.
My thoughts are as follows.
First , I've had many gay friends over the years. I'm straight as a pool cue to use their description of me. What they did behind closed doors didn't matter a whit to me.
Why the supreme court had to get involved in this is beyond me. The only possible reason I can see is to further divide the people on a non issue. A website? Just down the street from me there's a small gas station with a sign up "WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE" which the owner says is because he doesn't want the "DIRTBAGS" (homeless) coming in. This is clearly discrimination but for some reason legal. It's a double standard by the supreme court decision. What it ends up doing is confusing a non issue and telling people how to run a business. The whole LGBTQ**"""$- whatever is being shoved down peoples throats to create disharmony in our society. Your examples are well thought out and I agree with you completely on all of them.
Homelessness in New York City is being solved by the Mayor granting the police the right to determine that someone is mentally ill because they don't have money to afford rent and hospitalize them while confiscating their belongings and taking away all their rights. In Phoenix a community group bought a lot and set up a homeless community which the city bulldozed because it didn't meet zoning codes. Exemptions or variances for the codes weren't even considered. Again, what few belongings the homeless had were destroyed stolen by the government. The supreme court won't address this issue because it's "legal". The laws are not legal in the sense of the constitution.
The business in this case had every right to refuse the job. The customer could easily have found another to take the job. I don't believe that a customer has the right to tell a business how to run their business. Given the supreme court decision LGBTQ couples should be able to demand that a fundamentalist Christian church should be forced to marry them. Fundamentalist Christian churches discriminate against people openly, why doesn't the supreme court address these issues? Our justice system is no longer a justice system. It's a system designed to support the plutocrats and punish the the rest of the people. No system is perfect. Perfection does not exist. The current political, judicial systems however have completely failed the citizens of the country and been recreated to serve the wealthy.
And what happened to separation of church and state?
First, thanks very much for your kind words, Toma.
Then, to your last [rhetorical] question, the likes of MTG say that the church SHOULD BE the state. That's the sad, precarious place where we find ourselves these days.
I agree completely that the justice system, especialy SCOTUS, has been subverted to align with not only a wealthy, but also a far-right, agenda.
I've read a little, not a lot, about the homeless situation in NYC, and the mayor's response. My question is, if mental hospitals everywhere are as crowded as we're told they are---and I know for a fact that that's the case in my area, in northern Ohio---what happens to all the people the police round up as mentally ill? There are no beds for them in the hospitals or mental facilities, so isn't the whole thing a useless exercise from the beginning? What is accomplished? More important, what happens to the people when facilities won't take them in?
The situation you describe in Phoenix is simply outrageous. Or, more aptly, heartless and cruel.
As for the churches, don't get me started. Any church that takes any political stand should lose its tax-exempt status. Period. Any religion that tries to impose its beliefs on anyone via political means should be considered a business, and treated accordingly for financial purposes.
Here's another one that will get you going. senator Brian schotz received some $9 mill. From the federal government for the homeless in Hawaii. On the Big island $3 mill was given to hope services Hawaii a LLC company of the Catholic Church. The money went to purchase a building and property which is going to be renovated to house 18 people.$ 220,000 a person. I wrote them an email asking for the details of the plan and never got a response. Here the solution is to do police sweeps and steal the belongings of the people and force them to move to another area. The people are demonized as being drug addicts and mentally ill by the government and media which is patently untrue for the majority. With the climate in Hawaii, simple tent shelters could be set up to house all the homeless on this island for far less than the $3 mill.
Bidens rent relief plan during COVID is now coming due. People have to pay back rent having been out of work for 2 years and don't have the money so are being evicted furthering the homeless situation. People with mortgages will face a similar situation. Somehow they were supposed to save money while out of work for when the relief plan ended. ??? This is all about creating homeless and transferring wealth upwards. COVID was used to shut down the economy needlessly for 2 years to accomplish this. The US had the highest death rate of ANY country in the world with "jabs", masks and quarantine and no one asks a question about it. We argue about the "origins". Fauci approved and funded the research in China. We weren't capable of it here? And what was it's ultimate purpose? Gain of function? Whatever that means.
The final nail in the coffin is the go green plan. It's completely unfeasible. If you like I'll tell you why in another comment. Maybe you can use it as a post.
Have a nice day and keep up the great work Denise.
Thanks, Toma. I just don't see any good news in the future on the housing front. You make excellent points about that. I have no doubt you're correct about the potential of tents in Hawaii. To me, that would seem to make perfect sense.
I know this is a totally futile speculation, but do all these people ordering the razing of homeless encampment ever stop to think that even a few personal setbacks might put THEM on the streets? I think all the time about how close most of us are. If 40% of the U.S. population is living paycheck to paycheck (the most frequent figure I've read), what's the danger for tens of millions of us?
Nine years ago, my husband and I bought a very small, used motorhome. My best friend's first comment was, "Well, if anything happens, at least you'll have a place to live." I had to admit I'd thought the same thing.
Smart with the motor home. Fix it up and maintain it. I saw this BS coming 20 years ago and moved from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Romney became governor and proceeded to destroy the state. He was the start up test for what became Obama care. Forced insurance benefiting the insurance companies.
It's the government razing the camps and none of them are in jeopardy. They are in control. None can think past tomorrow besides they will get their pension. Soon those 40% will be destitute and on the streets. That appears to be the plan. Reality is cynical and pessimistic today and we have been indoctrinated to believe that everything is wonderful.
Here's something else to think about...
Magic mushrooms are being hailed as a "cure" for depression PTSD and anxiety. John Hopkins is studying them and the analysis is that they make people " suggestible" to outside influence. Psilocybin is being legalized in some states now. How better to enhance propaganda? Does this go back to the CIA research in the 60s? The dense gullible Americans will suck this up hook line and sinker. The British used grog to control the sailors, modern science has found something better.
Americans could start to turn things around simply and non violently. Take one month off shopping in the major box stores. Buy only what is absolutely necessary and from small businesses. Money is the weapon used against us. It can be turned around and pointed in the other direction.
Next election everyone should write in their own name. This would be a failure because the electoral college and supreme court would choose the president but it would send a message. Your thoughts? Best I can do for optimistic options.
Have a nice night and weekend.
Good Kitty my cat is running for president and would appreciate your support. He's going to howl election fraud if he loses and he can howl far better than Trump. Do you realize that the definition of trumpery is deception, trickery or fraud? Kinda humorous to think about.
Good Kitty '24! Our shih tzu, Cindy, would make a great VP. She knows how to tell time, and she's very much in favor of everyone having a good home. Plus which, she'll work with anyone who provides treats, so bipartisanship would be a cinch!
Yeah, great point about trumpery. Bet HE doesn't know that.
Also good point about the ACA, but I haven't come across anyone who will acknowledge the flaws. As someone who had to subscribe to it for several years, I can testify that it's no bargain. In fact, it's very expensive unless one is living right on the edge.
I keep seeing these essays questioning why the public's perception of the economy is bad, when it's actually so great, by all these different measures. Well.....maybe because so many people are under-employed, precariously employed, have to work three jobs to make it, or are virtual slaves to greedy employers, with steadily decreasing benefits. Geez! The experts who are writing the essays should come down out of their ivory towers and live like the rest of us. So there!
I hadn't heard specifically about magic mushrooms, but had read that there’s a lot of research going on with hallucinogens in general. I've read about their applications in trying to ease traumatic memories, which would be a godsend for some. But yeah, if the goal is mind control, we're entering the Twilight Zone.
Agree about big-box boycotts, but there isn't enough collective will to pull them off. Too inconvenient! Ditto with your voting idea---excellent premise, but nobody wants to think that far. I've read about the NOTC (none of these candidates) ballot option on other forums, but the idea hasn't gotten legs yet, although it should.
His Majestic Magisty, Good Kitty would be proud and thrilled to have Cindy as a running mate for 2024! It will be a winning combination for sure!
Male and female, different species, different ethnicity and bipartisanship are exactly what the country needs.
As a former homeless person Good Kitty will bring unique and valuable insight for the social situations in the US and the world.
Her Royal Highness, Cindy will make a perfect emissary for the China -Tibet situation and the Dahlia Lama will be a welcome addition to the negotiation table.
I see Team Orca as the future white house cabinet with Team Ninja Dolphins as DOD advisory committee for the newly formed DOP (Dept. Of Peace). Team Orca can bring valuable insight to global warming and ecological solutions with Team Ninja Dolphins bringing much needed peace to the world.
If we bring some kangaroos into the mix we can solve the AUKAS issue.
"Keep your claws sharp!"
Good Kitty and Cindy '24!
ANIMALS UNITED PARTY
We will have to get new china and silver for the white house though. Pets R US perhaps? And lots of fish..... sashimi of course.
Here's another one that will get you going. senator Brian schotz received some $9 mill. From the federal government for the homeless in Hawaii. On the Big island $3 mill was given to hope services Hawaii a LLC company of the Catholic Church. The money went to purchase a building and property which is going to be renovated to house 18 people.$ 220,000 a person. I wrote them an email asking for the details of the plan and never got a response. Here the solution is to do police sweeps and steal the belongings of the people and force them to move to another area. The people are demonized as being drug addicts and mentally ill by the government and media which is patently untrue for the majority. With the climate in Hawaii, simple tent shelters could be set up to house all the homeless on this island for far less than the $3 mill.
Bidens rent relief plan during COVID is now coming due. People have to pay back rent having been out of work for 2 years and don't have the money so are being evicted furthering the homeless situation. People with mortgages will face a similar situation. Somehow they were supposed to save money while out of work for when the relief plan ended. ??? This is all about creating homeless and transferring wealth upwards. COVID was used to shut down the economy needlessly for 2 years to accomplish this. The US had the highest death rate of ANY country in the world with "jabs", masks and quarantine and no one asks a question about it. We argue about the "origins". Fauci approved and funded the research in China. We weren't capable of it here? And what was it's ultimate purpose? Gain of function? Whatever that means.
The final nail in the coffin is the go green plan. It's completely unfeasible. If you like I'll tell you why in another comment. Maybe you can use it as a post.
Have a nice day and keep up the great work Denise.
Where is the thin line between bias and discrimination?
If I have a bias for heterosexual marriage that is somehow threatened by a same sex couple requesting my cake services then, a simple and perhaps polite refusal to do business without stated justification forces the customer to seek the same service from someone else, no harm done.
Conversely, a sign in my storefront window that states "No services rendered to Gay couples" appears to cross a line reminiscent of "Whites Only" drinking fountains!
What's wrong with saying "no"? Can't a person seeking a "bullets and rifle" piece go elsewhere if you should choose to pass on that commission?
People say "no" all the time. Maybe they're too busy. Maybe it's not up their alley. Maybe they do find it objectionable.
Maybe that's my point -- why do people insist on telling you why they say "no"? Why can't people simply say: this project is not for me, but I can recommend another jeweler, or cake shop, or artist. Instead, we turn it into an issue of rights and power. I seek the power to deny you my work based on my moral objections, my religious beliefs, etc.
Why can't we just say "It's not for me"? Now, if it's a public restaurant where all clients are served except for, let's say, Italians, that's clearly discriminatory and wrong.
Excellent point, Bill. If it would be possible to say an unqualified, "no," then that would indeed be the best way to go. Or, if the customer asked for a reason, fobbing him/her off with an excuse such as, "I couldn't source those components," or, "I've taken all the commissions I can for the next few months," or similar, would be a good alternative. The cake shop owner might have to be more creative with a refusal, but yes, your point is quite valid. Self-righteousness wouldn't have to enter into the equation, as far as the customer would know.
You’re right that society has long done a reasonable job of sorting itsself out by “just saying ‘No thanks’.”
What worries me more is that the anti-democrats are reachjng further to make it *illegal* for anyone to make that cake for a gay/trans wedding. That will start locally, then by state, and then to SCOTUS.
I think each of us has some issue or point at which we’ll “draw the line” and refuse to do some requested task. You provide good examples. Years ago I used to provide a “friendly edit” on comments that my right-wing coworker wanted to post. I would not do that today, not even for pay. One complication is that in smaller towns there may only be one person or company that can provide a particular service. But rather than ask or *force* that person to do something distasteful to them I believe the asker needs to find an alternate solution. Like, maybe not having that wedding cake but having cupcakes instead?
For sure, it's harder to find alternatives in a small town, but when you think about it, wouldn't you, as a customer, prefer to take your business to someone who wanted to serve you? Why would you try to force a provider to take on your project?
How soon will we see such a deep division in our country, in cities and towns both large and small, that people (liberals, known Democrats, trans and gay folks, etc.) are simply branded “undesirable” by large numbers of business owners?
I believe this is what the Christers want...to create an uncrossable chasm. To make it nearly impossible to *live* in those places. It would be very close to the German Nazi state that forced Jews to sew yellow stars on their clothing for easy identification.
That's a frightening extrapolation, Radaghast. But entirely logical, given the way things are going in this country. We know that the Christian nationalists are louder than everybody else, so it remains to be seen whether they can accumulate more power.
I have to say, if you don't want to undertake a creative project (as an independent artist) you shouldn't be required to do so just because someone wants you to. You don't have to have a reason. And you don't have to be hateful about it. Just say no, I can't, sorry.
I think, as a practical matter, you have the right of it. I don't know if anyone would demand a reason.
Certainly, the issue should never have been a SCOTUS matter, especially as the designer in question never actually got a request from a same-sex couple.
Exactly. It would be the same as if someone came and asked for a piece you didn't have time to do or didn't feel you could do well. It should never be a requirement to produce something or mandated that you don't have to. The bottom line is do it or don't, but don't be a dick about it.
Yep. And I can't imagine a situation in which someone would insist on a service, if the provider clearly couldn't/wouldn't/didn't want to provide it.
Unless, of course, it was a life-or-death or otherwise critical situation, such as, oh, I don't know, doing car repairs for a same-sex couple stranded in a small town with no other option.
First I'd like to say it's nice to see someone who writes about the little things in our society that aren't little because they have major impacts on people. This post and issue is one of those. It's nice to see you had an initial reaction which you thought about and reversed.
My thoughts are as follows.
First , I've had many gay friends over the years. I'm straight as a pool cue to use their description of me. What they did behind closed doors didn't matter a whit to me.
Why the supreme court had to get involved in this is beyond me. The only possible reason I can see is to further divide the people on a non issue. A website? Just down the street from me there's a small gas station with a sign up "WE RESERVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE SERVICE TO ANYONE" which the owner says is because he doesn't want the "DIRTBAGS" (homeless) coming in. This is clearly discrimination but for some reason legal. It's a double standard by the supreme court decision. What it ends up doing is confusing a non issue and telling people how to run a business. The whole LGBTQ**"""$- whatever is being shoved down peoples throats to create disharmony in our society. Your examples are well thought out and I agree with you completely on all of them.
Homelessness in New York City is being solved by the Mayor granting the police the right to determine that someone is mentally ill because they don't have money to afford rent and hospitalize them while confiscating their belongings and taking away all their rights. In Phoenix a community group bought a lot and set up a homeless community which the city bulldozed because it didn't meet zoning codes. Exemptions or variances for the codes weren't even considered. Again, what few belongings the homeless had were destroyed stolen by the government. The supreme court won't address this issue because it's "legal". The laws are not legal in the sense of the constitution.
The business in this case had every right to refuse the job. The customer could easily have found another to take the job. I don't believe that a customer has the right to tell a business how to run their business. Given the supreme court decision LGBTQ couples should be able to demand that a fundamentalist Christian church should be forced to marry them. Fundamentalist Christian churches discriminate against people openly, why doesn't the supreme court address these issues? Our justice system is no longer a justice system. It's a system designed to support the plutocrats and punish the the rest of the people. No system is perfect. Perfection does not exist. The current political, judicial systems however have completely failed the citizens of the country and been recreated to serve the wealthy.
And what happened to separation of church and state?
First, thanks very much for your kind words, Toma.
Then, to your last [rhetorical] question, the likes of MTG say that the church SHOULD BE the state. That's the sad, precarious place where we find ourselves these days.
I agree completely that the justice system, especialy SCOTUS, has been subverted to align with not only a wealthy, but also a far-right, agenda.
I've read a little, not a lot, about the homeless situation in NYC, and the mayor's response. My question is, if mental hospitals everywhere are as crowded as we're told they are---and I know for a fact that that's the case in my area, in northern Ohio---what happens to all the people the police round up as mentally ill? There are no beds for them in the hospitals or mental facilities, so isn't the whole thing a useless exercise from the beginning? What is accomplished? More important, what happens to the people when facilities won't take them in?
The situation you describe in Phoenix is simply outrageous. Or, more aptly, heartless and cruel.
As for the churches, don't get me started. Any church that takes any political stand should lose its tax-exempt status. Period. Any religion that tries to impose its beliefs on anyone via political means should be considered a business, and treated accordingly for financial purposes.
Here's another one that will get you going. senator Brian schotz received some $9 mill. From the federal government for the homeless in Hawaii. On the Big island $3 mill was given to hope services Hawaii a LLC company of the Catholic Church. The money went to purchase a building and property which is going to be renovated to house 18 people.$ 220,000 a person. I wrote them an email asking for the details of the plan and never got a response. Here the solution is to do police sweeps and steal the belongings of the people and force them to move to another area. The people are demonized as being drug addicts and mentally ill by the government and media which is patently untrue for the majority. With the climate in Hawaii, simple tent shelters could be set up to house all the homeless on this island for far less than the $3 mill.
Bidens rent relief plan during COVID is now coming due. People have to pay back rent having been out of work for 2 years and don't have the money so are being evicted furthering the homeless situation. People with mortgages will face a similar situation. Somehow they were supposed to save money while out of work for when the relief plan ended. ??? This is all about creating homeless and transferring wealth upwards. COVID was used to shut down the economy needlessly for 2 years to accomplish this. The US had the highest death rate of ANY country in the world with "jabs", masks and quarantine and no one asks a question about it. We argue about the "origins". Fauci approved and funded the research in China. We weren't capable of it here? And what was it's ultimate purpose? Gain of function? Whatever that means.
The final nail in the coffin is the go green plan. It's completely unfeasible. If you like I'll tell you why in another comment. Maybe you can use it as a post.
Have a nice day and keep up the great work Denise.
Thanks, Toma. I just don't see any good news in the future on the housing front. You make excellent points about that. I have no doubt you're correct about the potential of tents in Hawaii. To me, that would seem to make perfect sense.
I know this is a totally futile speculation, but do all these people ordering the razing of homeless encampment ever stop to think that even a few personal setbacks might put THEM on the streets? I think all the time about how close most of us are. If 40% of the U.S. population is living paycheck to paycheck (the most frequent figure I've read), what's the danger for tens of millions of us?
Nine years ago, my husband and I bought a very small, used motorhome. My best friend's first comment was, "Well, if anything happens, at least you'll have a place to live." I had to admit I'd thought the same thing.
Smart with the motor home. Fix it up and maintain it. I saw this BS coming 20 years ago and moved from Massachusetts to Hawaii. Romney became governor and proceeded to destroy the state. He was the start up test for what became Obama care. Forced insurance benefiting the insurance companies.
It's the government razing the camps and none of them are in jeopardy. They are in control. None can think past tomorrow besides they will get their pension. Soon those 40% will be destitute and on the streets. That appears to be the plan. Reality is cynical and pessimistic today and we have been indoctrinated to believe that everything is wonderful.
Here's something else to think about...
Magic mushrooms are being hailed as a "cure" for depression PTSD and anxiety. John Hopkins is studying them and the analysis is that they make people " suggestible" to outside influence. Psilocybin is being legalized in some states now. How better to enhance propaganda? Does this go back to the CIA research in the 60s? The dense gullible Americans will suck this up hook line and sinker. The British used grog to control the sailors, modern science has found something better.
Americans could start to turn things around simply and non violently. Take one month off shopping in the major box stores. Buy only what is absolutely necessary and from small businesses. Money is the weapon used against us. It can be turned around and pointed in the other direction.
Next election everyone should write in their own name. This would be a failure because the electoral college and supreme court would choose the president but it would send a message. Your thoughts? Best I can do for optimistic options.
Have a nice night and weekend.
Good Kitty my cat is running for president and would appreciate your support. He's going to howl election fraud if he loses and he can howl far better than Trump. Do you realize that the definition of trumpery is deception, trickery or fraud? Kinda humorous to think about.
Good Kitty '24! Our shih tzu, Cindy, would make a great VP. She knows how to tell time, and she's very much in favor of everyone having a good home. Plus which, she'll work with anyone who provides treats, so bipartisanship would be a cinch!
Yeah, great point about trumpery. Bet HE doesn't know that.
Also good point about the ACA, but I haven't come across anyone who will acknowledge the flaws. As someone who had to subscribe to it for several years, I can testify that it's no bargain. In fact, it's very expensive unless one is living right on the edge.
I keep seeing these essays questioning why the public's perception of the economy is bad, when it's actually so great, by all these different measures. Well.....maybe because so many people are under-employed, precariously employed, have to work three jobs to make it, or are virtual slaves to greedy employers, with steadily decreasing benefits. Geez! The experts who are writing the essays should come down out of their ivory towers and live like the rest of us. So there!
I hadn't heard specifically about magic mushrooms, but had read that there’s a lot of research going on with hallucinogens in general. I've read about their applications in trying to ease traumatic memories, which would be a godsend for some. But yeah, if the goal is mind control, we're entering the Twilight Zone.
Agree about big-box boycotts, but there isn't enough collective will to pull them off. Too inconvenient! Ditto with your voting idea---excellent premise, but nobody wants to think that far. I've read about the NOTC (none of these candidates) ballot option on other forums, but the idea hasn't gotten legs yet, although it should.
His Majestic Magisty, Good Kitty would be proud and thrilled to have Cindy as a running mate for 2024! It will be a winning combination for sure!
Male and female, different species, different ethnicity and bipartisanship are exactly what the country needs.
As a former homeless person Good Kitty will bring unique and valuable insight for the social situations in the US and the world.
Her Royal Highness, Cindy will make a perfect emissary for the China -Tibet situation and the Dahlia Lama will be a welcome addition to the negotiation table.
I see Team Orca as the future white house cabinet with Team Ninja Dolphins as DOD advisory committee for the newly formed DOP (Dept. Of Peace). Team Orca can bring valuable insight to global warming and ecological solutions with Team Ninja Dolphins bringing much needed peace to the world.
If we bring some kangaroos into the mix we can solve the AUKAS issue.
"Keep your claws sharp!"
Good Kitty and Cindy '24!
ANIMALS UNITED PARTY
We will have to get new china and silver for the white house though. Pets R US perhaps? And lots of fish..... sashimi of course.
Here's another one that will get you going. senator Brian schotz received some $9 mill. From the federal government for the homeless in Hawaii. On the Big island $3 mill was given to hope services Hawaii a LLC company of the Catholic Church. The money went to purchase a building and property which is going to be renovated to house 18 people.$ 220,000 a person. I wrote them an email asking for the details of the plan and never got a response. Here the solution is to do police sweeps and steal the belongings of the people and force them to move to another area. The people are demonized as being drug addicts and mentally ill by the government and media which is patently untrue for the majority. With the climate in Hawaii, simple tent shelters could be set up to house all the homeless on this island for far less than the $3 mill.
Bidens rent relief plan during COVID is now coming due. People have to pay back rent having been out of work for 2 years and don't have the money so are being evicted furthering the homeless situation. People with mortgages will face a similar situation. Somehow they were supposed to save money while out of work for when the relief plan ended. ??? This is all about creating homeless and transferring wealth upwards. COVID was used to shut down the economy needlessly for 2 years to accomplish this. The US had the highest death rate of ANY country in the world with "jabs", masks and quarantine and no one asks a question about it. We argue about the "origins". Fauci approved and funded the research in China. We weren't capable of it here? And what was it's ultimate purpose? Gain of function? Whatever that means.
The final nail in the coffin is the go green plan. It's completely unfeasible. If you like I'll tell you why in another comment. Maybe you can use it as a post.
Have a nice day and keep up the great work Denise.
Where is the thin line between bias and discrimination?
If I have a bias for heterosexual marriage that is somehow threatened by a same sex couple requesting my cake services then, a simple and perhaps polite refusal to do business without stated justification forces the customer to seek the same service from someone else, no harm done.
Conversely, a sign in my storefront window that states "No services rendered to Gay couples" appears to cross a line reminiscent of "Whites Only" drinking fountains!
Yes?
Agree, David. Exactly.
What's wrong with saying "no"? Can't a person seeking a "bullets and rifle" piece go elsewhere if you should choose to pass on that commission?
People say "no" all the time. Maybe they're too busy. Maybe it's not up their alley. Maybe they do find it objectionable.
Maybe that's my point -- why do people insist on telling you why they say "no"? Why can't people simply say: this project is not for me, but I can recommend another jeweler, or cake shop, or artist. Instead, we turn it into an issue of rights and power. I seek the power to deny you my work based on my moral objections, my religious beliefs, etc.
Why can't we just say "It's not for me"? Now, if it's a public restaurant where all clients are served except for, let's say, Italians, that's clearly discriminatory and wrong.
What do you think, Denise?
Excellent point, Bill. If it would be possible to say an unqualified, "no," then that would indeed be the best way to go. Or, if the customer asked for a reason, fobbing him/her off with an excuse such as, "I couldn't source those components," or, "I've taken all the commissions I can for the next few months," or similar, would be a good alternative. The cake shop owner might have to be more creative with a refusal, but yes, your point is quite valid. Self-righteousness wouldn't have to enter into the equation, as far as the customer would know.
You’re right that society has long done a reasonable job of sorting itsself out by “just saying ‘No thanks’.”
What worries me more is that the anti-democrats are reachjng further to make it *illegal* for anyone to make that cake for a gay/trans wedding. That will start locally, then by state, and then to SCOTUS.
If things get to that point, we're dead in the water, anyway. We'll be living, "The Handmaid's Tale."
I think each of us has some issue or point at which we’ll “draw the line” and refuse to do some requested task. You provide good examples. Years ago I used to provide a “friendly edit” on comments that my right-wing coworker wanted to post. I would not do that today, not even for pay. One complication is that in smaller towns there may only be one person or company that can provide a particular service. But rather than ask or *force* that person to do something distasteful to them I believe the asker needs to find an alternate solution. Like, maybe not having that wedding cake but having cupcakes instead?
For sure, it's harder to find alternatives in a small town, but when you think about it, wouldn't you, as a customer, prefer to take your business to someone who wanted to serve you? Why would you try to force a provider to take on your project?
I agree, and...
How soon will we see such a deep division in our country, in cities and towns both large and small, that people (liberals, known Democrats, trans and gay folks, etc.) are simply branded “undesirable” by large numbers of business owners?
I believe this is what the Christers want...to create an uncrossable chasm. To make it nearly impossible to *live* in those places. It would be very close to the German Nazi state that forced Jews to sew yellow stars on their clothing for easy identification.
That's a frightening extrapolation, Radaghast. But entirely logical, given the way things are going in this country. We know that the Christian nationalists are louder than everybody else, so it remains to be seen whether they can accumulate more power.